Posts by Disillusioned JW

12

What do Jehovah`s Witnesses beleive that can be linked to Pagan practices , anyone ?

by smiddy3 in

a previous thread has inspired me to post this ,thanks guys .. { i`ve been out for so long i may have missed something }.

Disillusioned JW

enoughisenough, but though the ancient Egyptians were pagans, Russel said the biblical Joseph was the one who built (directed) the building of the the Great Pyramid of Giza. Russell said it happened when Joseph (according to the Bible) was in a very high level governmental position in Egypt. Russell also used a biblical verse to say it was built as a witness to Jehovah God.

99

If not the WT/JW relgion where else are 'we' to go? Why not atheistic/scientific philosophical naturalism?

by Disillusioned JW in

sometimes jws wonder if the wt/jw is not the truth, 'then where else are we to go?

' i say 'why not atheistic/scientific philosophical naturalism and why not a secular philosophy which teaches a way of life?

' what do you folks say?.

Disillusioned JW

Phizzzy, please list the names of those 35 new species, if you have the time to do so. Are they truly new species, or merely old species which were newly discovered by humans. Sometimes news articles imply that newly discovered species are species which newly came into existence, but if no human was around to see them come into existence how can anyone know they hadn't been in existence for hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of years prior to their discovery?

89

Myth of 1914

by peacefulpete in

the wt engages in history revisionism when insisting the world changed overnight in 1914. in fact the european power struggles that came to a head were centuries old.

millions of lives had been lost in the wars of the 19th century, with the world a powder keg the years prior to the assassination of franz ferdinand in june 1914 which is often said, albeit rather arbitrarily, as the start of the war that escalated over the next 4 years into the great war.

take a look at these two pages and ask if the wt's interpretation of history seems accurate to you.

Disillusioned JW

Beth Sarim, I have not seen any EXJW Panda Tower's videos. If the WT is very heavily preaching their 1914 doctrine (and see an urgency to do so) then I think it will accelerate the number of JWs and of young people raised as JWs to avoid becoming baptized (or to become inactive if they are publishers). That is because I think that one of the first things doubting JWs (especially including unbaptized ones attending JW meetings) will do Is to look to see if the 1914 doctrine (and the doctrine of the governing body being appointed by Jehovah) is false. The heavy promotion of the 1914 doctrine will draw attention of WT affiliated doubting people to that particular doctrine with a critical eye. When I was still a believing Christian a major thing which caused me to stop believing in the WT religion, as being specially chosen or specially enlightened, was me eventually realizing that Jesus hadn't begun to rule as Messianic king over the Earth. [At the time I thought his reign was still in future, at the time I was not an atheist.] T here is no evidence at all that Jesus is ruling the Earth or mankind. All of the governments (most of which are secular governments) of the Earth are being ruled by humans and there is no sign that any of them are taking direction from Christ (though some of the human ruler think they are doing what Christ wants). Likewise Jesus hasn't conquered any human government. No portion of the Earth is a part of his kingdom, no even the JW religion or the WT's headquarters.

89

Myth of 1914

by peacefulpete in

the wt engages in history revisionism when insisting the world changed overnight in 1914. in fact the european power struggles that came to a head were centuries old.

millions of lives had been lost in the wars of the 19th century, with the world a powder keg the years prior to the assassination of franz ferdinand in june 1914 which is often said, albeit rather arbitrarily, as the start of the war that escalated over the next 4 years into the great war.

take a look at these two pages and ask if the wt's interpretation of history seems accurate to you.

Disillusioned JW

Fisherman I notice that you said the following. 'You don’t get it. If JW claim a sign validates 1914. It is written in stone. And that’s that." But consider this, in the WT's volumes called Study in the Scriptures, Russell literally said the 1874 and 1878 dates were some of the dates which were "God's dates", "not man's dates". He further said that certain events confirmed those dates to be true. Rutherford made similar claims about those dates (such as in the Harp Of God book, I think). Since the WT did such before, they can also drop the 1914 date (despite having claimed that various signs confirm the 1914 date). Dropping the 1914 would cause them to loose many members (like when they dropped other dates, such as the 1925 date set by Rutherford), but later they would possibly attract other people to become new JWs (after the baggage of the 1914 doctrine has been jettisoned).

89

Myth of 1914

by peacefulpete in

the wt engages in history revisionism when insisting the world changed overnight in 1914. in fact the european power struggles that came to a head were centuries old.

millions of lives had been lost in the wars of the 19th century, with the world a powder keg the years prior to the assassination of franz ferdinand in june 1914 which is often said, albeit rather arbitrarily, as the start of the war that escalated over the next 4 years into the great war.

take a look at these two pages and ask if the wt's interpretation of history seems accurate to you.

Disillusioned JW

When did they stop using the Reasoning from the Scriptures book?

349

Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Godlyman in

if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

estephan.

Disillusioned JW

Modern day non-Christian Jews have excellent reasons for rejecting Jesus as the Messiah. See https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/videos/six-reasons-why-jews-don-t-believe-in-jesus and https://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/2637/Q1/ . See also https://lessons.myjli.com/why/index.php/2016/11/21/why-arent-we-christians/ .

349

Who really is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Godlyman in

if anyone were to come up to you claiming that they are the faithful and discreet slave, how would you go about proving them to be false, based upon scripture?.

estephan.

Disillusioned JW

Vanderhoven7 regarding your comment of "And there is plenty of evidence it wasn't" that agrees with my earlier comment of "There is evidence that governing body members of the WT/JW religion were not chosen by God." But you made a good contribution by including the word "plenty" in your comment.

99

If not the WT/JW relgion where else are 'we' to go? Why not atheistic/scientific philosophical naturalism?

by Disillusioned JW in

sometimes jws wonder if the wt/jw is not the truth, 'then where else are we to go?

' i say 'why not atheistic/scientific philosophical naturalism and why not a secular philosophy which teaches a way of life?

' what do you folks say?.

Disillusioned JW

https://avianhybrids.wordpress.com/2020/01/23/a-genetic-model-for-puntuated-equilibria/ has a brief article which includes an easy to understand very brief summary of the Developmental Gene Hypothesis.

http://web01.cabeard.k12.in.us/science/APBiology/bc_campbell_biology_7/0,7052,4350321-,00.html has a much older article called "Unit Four: Steven M. Stanley, Evolution Interview: Steven M. Stanley" which is informative about the theory of punctuated equilibrium theory of macroevolution. it says in part the following.

"It seems that the debate between a gradual and a punctuated view of evolution is not just about tempo. It's also a debate about mechanism.

It is to a degree, but there has been much misunderstanding about this. Some geneticists have assumed that paleontologists adopting a punctuational position argue for a totally new genetic mechanism for evolution. That's not really true. The punctuational view is quite compatible with the view that natural selection operating on mutations over a period of generations is the prevailing mode of transitions. It's simply a matter of our compressing this into a shorter time and considering it as happening in small populations.

One of the basic notions of the modern synthesis has been that large, well-established species with subdivided populations offer the most effective conditions for evolution to occur. The punctuational scheme would argue that small populations evolve not just as parts of a whole complex that's evolving, but as individual units that are evolving and diverging rapidly. In fact, Ernst Mayr, a major proponent of the modern synthesis, laid the foundation for this whole viewpoint as early as 1954. He published a paper that suggested that the lack of continuity in the fossil record could well be a result of change taking place in small populations rapidly on the geological scale of time; yet the idea was never assimilated into the modern synthesis.

So transitional forms are so rarely observed in the fossil record because most speciation events involve very small splinter populations separated from a larger established population?

I think that's often the case. Evolution happens rapidly in small, localized populations, so we're not likely to see it in the fossil record. If you think about successful speciation events in terms of local diversity, there is a very revealing and simple notion. If you could sit and watch a particular group of animals or plants, say, in a family that includes 50 species, through 5 million years of time, each of those species would give rise to only one other species, on the average. Speciation is a very rare event. Because biologists often focus on the immediacy of things, they sometimes overlook how improbable and rare a speciation event actually is."

99

If not the WT/JW relgion where else are 'we' to go? Why not atheistic/scientific philosophical naturalism?

by Disillusioned JW in

sometimes jws wonder if the wt/jw is not the truth, 'then where else are we to go?

' i say 'why not atheistic/scientific philosophical naturalism and why not a secular philosophy which teaches a way of life?

' what do you folks say?.

Disillusioned JW

On pages 6 and 7 of this topic thread, Sea Breeze (probably this site's foremost outspoken young Earth creationist critic of evolution) says that the science of genetics (combined with the idea of information theory) prove that mutations and natural selection could not have have resulted in macroevolution, but he is wrong.

Yesterday I found a science essay article which presents very strong genetic evidence of what causes most macroevolution, including such having happened in a punctuated equilibrium manner! See https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7029956/ . It has an abstract of an article from February 2022 called "The Developmental Gene Hypothesis for Punctuated Equilibrium: Combined Roles of Developmental Regulatory Genes and Transposable Elements". It provides the answer I have been looking for years. It is similar to partial answers I have found years ago, but it is expansion of those. According to my understanding of the article, the cause of macroevolution in a punctuated equilibrium manner is as follows. Most the needed mutations for such happen in noncoding sections of the genome which acquired insertions of transposable elements (TE). Since that area is noncoding such mutations did not harm organisms. Later some of the insertions were transposed to in or near transcriptional and developmental genes. When such insertions were beneficial it resulted in sudden macroevolution (but when they were unfavorable the result was "... typically incompatible with life and often lead to miscarriage or serious functional impairment preventing further inheritance"). The DevReg genes were thus were high conserved, with only the beneficial changes being passed on from individuals' offspring beyond one generation. [Regarding one instance the article says the following. "In this instance, the variation intolerance of DevReg genes provides an active safeguard against mutational events. Surprisingly, CNE within long genes such as DevReg genes are not mutation cold spots despite their functional sensitivity. Instead, such mutations are typically incompatible with life and often lead to miscarriage or serious functional impairment preventing further inheritance. [41,42] "] The article says the following.

'Theories of the genetics underlying Punctuated Equilibrium (PE) have been vague to date. Here we propose the Developmental Gene Hypothesis, which states that: 1) developmental regulatory (DevReg) genes are responsible for the orchestration of metazoan morphogenesis and their extreme conservation and mutation intolerance generates the equilibrium or stasis present throughout much of the fossil record; and 2) the accumulation of regulatory elements and recombination within these same genes—often derived from transposable elements—drives punctuated bursts of morphological divergence and speciation across metazoa. This two-part hypothesis helps to explain the features that characterize PE, providing a theoretical genetic basis for the once-controversial theory.

... Detractors of punctuated equilibrium have previously chided the theory as a mechanism with “no scientific use” as they claimed it could not be tested at the genetic level. [2] However, with the advent of large-scale genomic sequencing and extensive molecular and computational study of numerous genomes, our wealth of available data has grown substantially since the early battles over Gould and Eldredge’s theory. [3] Since that time we have been able to study not only transposable elements (TE) (i.e., “selfish DNA”) and their roles in molecular evolution, but also the subset of genes responsible for the regulation of morphogenesis reflected in the fossil record.

Here, we propose that there is a native genetic complement to TE insertions leading to features of punctuated equilibria in both the vertebrate and invertebrate fossil records. Specifically, this complement lies within the developmental regulatory (DevReg) genes responsible for morphogenesis and their unique mutational patterns, as well as the elements that regulate their expression. The genes’ relative mutation intolerance suggests a means by which morphology is actively conserved even in the face of exaggerated TE activity. [4] Yet they also exhibit a clear history of TE insertion that is strongly correlated to the presence of conserved noncoding elements (CNE) and changes to gene regulation and phenotype by acting as promoters, enhancers, repressors, terminators, insulators, and post-transcriptional effectors.[4–7] In addition, TE-derived RNA may act as direct regulators of these important developmental genes, strongly reminiscent of Barbara McClintock’s “controlling elements”. [7,8] Alongside the TE-Thrust Hypothesis [9] and the TE-epigenomic arms race proposed by Zeh et al. [10], as well as the large body of work spearheaded by Eric Davidson [11,12] concerning the roles of the regulome in speciation, we believe the Developmental Gene Hypothesis may help explain the long periods of active morphological stasis within the fossil record bookended by rare TE-associated mutational events that have long lasting effects on phenotype and have been tightly conserved over evolutionary time [4,13] (Fig. 1).

... Although evolution of the eukaryotic exome has been relatively conserved across time, evolution of the regulome seems to account for considerable interspecies variation. [11,13] The regulome is both a seat of rapid evolutionary development, as in the case of species-specific TE regulatory exaptation, and extreme conservation in the form of conserved (CNE) and ultraconserved noncoding elements (UCNE). [14–16] UCNE networks are likewise strongly conserved across species in the form of gene regulatory blocks surrounding important developmental genes. [17]

... Many of the UCNE are located in or near transcriptional and developmental genes, as are many of the younger less conserved noncoding elements unique to later phylogenetic branches, suggesting a strong directional selection for the retention and exaptation of potential noncoding elements in these regions [15,18]

... While genetic isolation and ultimately hybrid dysgenesis ensure speciation, the evolution of DevReg genes plays a fundamental role in the type of morphological divergence that originally inspired the Linnaean classification system. [45] ... it has subsequently been demonstrated that morphological evolution correlates better with regulatory gene divergence rather than with overall rates of molecular evolution. [48–50] Thus, the variation intolerance we see in DevReg genes appears to be responsible for the significant periods of morphological stasis present in the fossil record. Meanwhile, other gene groups evolve at a more rapid, and perhaps more constant, rate.

... Since the publication of the theory of punctuated equilibrium, detractors have sometimes criticized its dependence on an imperfect fossil record and the lack of an underlying genetic theory. [1] Oliver and Greene [9] and Zeh et al. [10] made significant strides by proposing genetic and epigenetic mechanisms that help explain the long periods of stasis bookended by periods of comparatively rapid change. Likewise, the body of work by Eric Davidson clearly outlines numerous regulatory mechanisms leading to morphological divergence across species. [11,12] These works, however, do not recognize the active role DevReg genes play in maintaining morphological stasis, their propensity to collect TE-derived noncoding elements over time, or their tendency to be regulated by TE-derived RNA. [8] All of these presumably underlie changes in gene function and morphology relevant to the patterns within the fossil record first recognized by Gould and Eldredge. [3] The Developmental Gene Hypothesis helps to fill in these important gaps.

... Within mammals, there are strong links between TE activity and speciation. [56,57] As mentioned, TEs provide a prime source of potential regulatory material to the host genome and the primate lineage is an excellent example of such a relationship.

... TE insertions have also played an important role in the evolution of pregnancy, particularly in the decidualization of the connective tissue within the uterus. For instance, certain endogenous retroviruses (ERV) are highly expressed in mammalian uterus in a tissue-specific manner and, among other things, help to drive cell fusion within the trophoblast layers via action of the ERV-derived envelope glycoprotein, syncytin. [75,76] Interestingly, the Mabuya lizard, which evolved approximately 25 million years ago (mya), is viviparous and has an unusually mammalian-like placenta that also expresses an ERV-derived envelope glycoprotein functionally identical to mammalian syncytin. [77] Similarly, fossilized evidence of the Jurassic marine reptiles, ichthyosaurs, show they were also viviparous, indicating that live birth has evolved multiple times in the reptilian lineage and may commonly be linked with the exaptation of retroviruses (see Fig. 4).

Thousands of other transposon-derived cis-regulatory elements have been identified that also regulate placental function, many of which have been exapted as hormone response elements (HRE). [78] For instance, Alu elements have been shown to house high-affinity binding sites for the estrogen, thyroid, and retinoic acid receptors. [79] SVA elements likewise appear to house HRE half-sites and also bind the glucocorticoid receptor. [80] Therefore, evidence suggests that both TE-derived HRE and ERV-derived envelope glycoproteins have played important roles in the evolution of mammalian pregnancy.

... 4. Conclusions and Outlook

While punctuated equilibrium as a theory has stood the test of time, until now there has been no clear genetic explanation for the trends present within the fossil record. Work by Oliver and Greene [9], Zeh et al. [10], and Davidson [11] provide admirable starting points and, we think, vital pieces of the larger story.

The Developmental Gene Hypothesis, however, proposes a clear and testable mechanism for stasis via the strong purifying selection acting upon DevReg genes. Likewise, a measurable record of transposable element insertion, exaptation, and recombination within these same genes provides a primary mechanism for bursts of adaptation and evidence of accelerated evolution in these genes across select species lends further support to this notion.'

146

Science News article: ‘Case closed’: 99.9% of scientists agree climate emergency caused by humans

by Disillusioned JW in

a news article has the headline of " ‘case closed’: 99.9% of scientists agree climate emergency caused by humans"; see https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/oct/19/case-closed-999-of-scientists-agree-climate-emergency-caused-by-humans .

the article says in part the following.. 'the scientific consensus that humans are altering the climate has passed 99.9%, according to research that strengthens the case for global action at the cop26 summit in glasgow.. the degree of scientific certainty about the impact of greenhouse gases is now similar to the level of agreement on evolution and plate tectonics, the authors say, based on a survey of nearly 90,000 climate-related studies.

this means there is practically no doubt among experts that burning fossil fuels, such as oil, gas, coal, peat and trees, is heating the planet and causing more extreme weather.. a previous survey in 2013 showed 97% of studies published between 1991 and 2012 supported the idea that human activities are altering earth’s climate.. this has been updated and expanded by the study by cornell university that shows the tiny minority of sceptical voices has diminished to almost nothing as evidence mounts of the link between fossil-fuel burning and climate disruption.. the latest survey of peer-reviewed literature published from 2012 to november 2020 was conducted in two stages.

Disillusioned JW

The quote from page 183 of Bill Nye's book which says "... 2 decades earlier" seems to mean 2 decades earlier than the year 1993. I think that because of the following. The quote on page 183 about the temperatures of Venus and of Earth is of what Bill Nye says he discussed in a book he wrote in 1993. Furthermore, a Wikipedia article about Bill Nye says he attended Cornell University from 1973 to 1977, and it says that while at Cornell Bill Nye took an astronomy course taught by Carl Sagan.

Regarding Vidqun's question of "Why is the mean temperature of Mars -60 degrees Celsius?", despite CO2 being about 96.5% of total gases, that answer should be obvious to those who researched the matter. It is obvious to me. It is because the total amount of gases on Mars is minute. The total amount of atmosphere of Mars is only about 1 percent of that of Earth. If the amount was the same as that of Earth it would be a much warmer planet than it now it. Scientists say that Mars used to have much more atmosphere but that it lost most of it, largely because its gravity wasn't strong enough to hold onto it. They also say that liquid water used to cover much of the surface of Mars and that Mars used to be much warmer than it is now.

Regarding Venus, it has vastly more total atmosphere than Earth. Scientists say that Venus used be much more like Earth - even possibly habitable, but that it later experienced a runway greenhouse effect! https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2475/nasa-climate-modeling-suggests-venus-may-have-been-habitable/ says the following.

"Venus today is a hellish world. It has a crushing carbon dioxide atmosphere 90 times as thick as Earth’s. There is almost no water vapor. Temperatures reach 864 degrees Fahrenheit (462 degrees Celsius) at its surface.

Scientists long have theorized that Venus formed out of ingredients similar to Earth’s, but followed a different evolutionary path. Measurements by NASA’s Pioneer mission to Venus in the 1980s first suggested Venus originally may have had an ocean. However, Venus is closer to the sun than Earth and receives far more sunlight. As a result, the planet’s early ocean evaporated, water-vapor molecules were broken apart by ultraviolet radiation, and hydrogen escaped to space. With no water left on the surface, carbon dioxide built up in the atmosphere, leading to a so-called runaway greenhouse effect that created present conditions."

'Once upon a time, around small yellow sun, there existed a world with a rocky surface and a molten core. It harbored water and may even have been hospitable to life.

Then the planet got hot -- really hot. Its atmosphere filled with heat-trapping gases. Water evaporated into its atmosphere and then was lost to space. Whatever mechanisms the planet may have had for balancing its climate were broken. Nothing, not even a robot, could survive there.

This is not a scenario from a science fiction novel about climate change (or the director’s cut of Wall-E). It’s what scientists say really happened to a world in our own solar system: Venus.

... Now Venus is the poster child for the “runaway greenhouse effect," a testament to the way a planet can change when the cycles that balance its climate are broken. The temperature at its surface is more than 850 degrees Fahrenheit -- as hot as a self-cleaning oven. The crushing pressure of an atmosphere thick with sulfuric acid clouds is as intense as what you’d experience half a mile beneath the ocean on Earth. If that wasn’t enough to kill you, breathing air composed of 96 percent carbon dioxide would do the trick.'

Regarding Vidqun's question of "Who pays Bill Nye's salary?", I see no significance to that in determining if that means Nye isn't really concerned about climate change being a huge danger to humankind or not. Many people take jobs in particular fields because those fields address matters which are important to them, instead of choosing them solely as a way to make money. For example, for a number years I had an online home-based business which sold solar electric modules. I chose to make money from that, rather than from something else instead of it, because I was (and am still) very greatly concerned about the environment and the environmental need for humankind to switch to from fossil fuel energy sources to renewable energy. My efforts to make money from the sale of solar electric modules did not cause me to be dishonest about the environmental importance of solar power and it did not cause me to be dishonest about the need to protect the environment, and it did not cause me to become dishonest about anything else.

Regarding where Bill Nye made and makes money from employment, he was host of the science education television show called Bill Nye the Science Guy from 1993–1999, and he makes money from the books he wrote which advocate science. Currently he is CEO of The Planetary Society, an American internationally-active non-governmental nonprofit organization. I don't know how much money, if any, he makes from that nonprofit organization. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Planetary_Society says "The Society is dedicated to the exploration of the Solar System, the search for near-Earth objects, and the search for extraterrestrial life.[4]" The organization thus does seem to be about climate change.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-ol-patt-morrison-bill-nye-science-20170719-htmlstory.html quotes Bill Nye as saying the following.

'One’s intuition about climate change is not as good as facts about climate change.

It just sounds like people are scared. It just sounds like people are afraid. And the people who are afraid in general — with due respect, and I am now one of them — are older. Climate change deniers, by way of example, are older. It’s generational. So we’re just going to have to wait for those people to “age out,” as they say. “Age out” is a euphemism for “die.” But it’ll happen, I guarantee you — that’ll happen.'

I hope that Bill Nye is right in thinking that the majority of climate change deniers are older people and that as result eventually there will be virtually no more climate deniers, since climate change is for real and urgently needs to recognized as such by the vast majority of adult humankind! Poll results say that Bill Nye is right about what age group primarily denies climate change. Note that https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/05/26/key-findings-how-americans-attitudes-about-climate-change-differ-by-generation-party-and-other-factors/ says the following regarding people in the USA

"

Younger generations in the U.S. are especially likely to express an interest in addressing climate change – and to say they have personally taken some kind of action to do so. About a third of Gen Zers (32%) and 28% of Millennials say they’ve done something in the past year to address climate change, such as donating money, volunteering, contacting an elected official or attending a rally or protest. And two-thirds of Gen Zers, as well as 61% of Millennials, say they’ve talked with friends or family about the need for action on climate change in the past few weeks. Smaller shares of Gen X and Baby Boomer and older adults say they’ve done these things.

Younger generations are also more likely to engage with climate change on social media: 45% of Gen Z and 40% of Millennial social media users say they’ve engaged with climate-related content in some way, such as by interacting with or sharing a post about the need for climate action or following an account focused on the cause. About half as many social media users who are Baby Boomers or members of older generations report doing the same.

A majority of Gen Zers (56%) and Millennials (57%) support a move to phase out gasoline-powered vehicles, compared with smaller shares in older generations. Younger generations are also significantly more likely than older ones to support phasing out the use of oil, coal and natural gas entirely, though about half or more across all generations favor using a mix of fossil fuel and renewable energy sources going forward."